Discussion:
[tz] Kyiv time zone
(too old to reply)
Simon
2015-03-26 21:55:14 UTC
Permalink
To whom it may concern,
I recently started using Ubuntu Linux on my desktop.
While adding my time-zone to the parameters on the site I saw that you
have "Kiev time zone".
I wanted to point out that "Kiev" is an archaic transliteration of the
city's name.
Currently, as Ukraine is independent for close to 24 years, the proper
transliteration would be "Kyiv"
I kindly ask that you adopt the proper transliterated version.

Kindest regards.
Simon Kostenko
Tim Parenti
2015-03-27 18:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Simon,

The tzdb uses the "mainstream English spelling" for place names wherever
possible; "Kiev" is more common in English than "Kyiv". See
https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/f14d56f9bcc4d822dd136394ce81e4cc5934f377/Theory#L434

--
Tim Parenti

On 26 March 2015 at 17:55, Simon <***@zoho.com> wrote:

> To whom it may concern,
> I recently started using Ubuntu Linux on my desktop.
> While adding my time-zone to the parameters on the site I saw that you
> have "Kiev time zone".
> I wanted to point out that "Kiev" is an archaic transliteration of the
> city's name.
> Currently, as Ukraine is independent for close to 24 years, the proper
> transliteration would be "Kyiv"
> I kindly ask that you adopt the proper transliterated version.
>
> Kindest regards.
> Simon Kostenko
>
sam.ua
2015-03-29 20:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Florian.

perhaps you are not aware of the history between Ukraine and Russia. Let me remind you that Moscow has pursued the destruction of Ukraine, Ukrainians and the Ukrainian language and culture for many centuries. This ethnic cleansing continues today with the Russification of Ukraine. Once you destroy a nation's identity --their language, culture and history, it's quite easy to convert them into mindless robots, who are easy prey for the imperialist. Even in 1991, as we achieved our long overdue independence , Ukrane was over 80-90% pro-Russian. after two plus decades those same people, who were once slaves to the empire, have been schooled on the true history of Ukraine and understand just how devious Moscow was in it's ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainian people. Little over a year ago we got rid of the last remaining remnant of that Soviet-Russian past - the Putin puppet Yanykovych. Our cities are nearly rid of Lenin and Stalin - two monsters that murdered tens of millions of Ukrainians, but as the links you provided show, that past is still a part of the present. We are gradually getting rid of it. The issue of Kyiv vs Kiev is precisely the past vs the present. Kyiv is today, it's also what it was in the old Ruthenian-Ukrainian chronicles that date back to the 9th century. It became Kiev under Russian rule and now it's once again Kyiv.

The war in Eastern Ukraine - the invasion by Russia, is a last attempt too keep Ukraine under Russia's orbit. we don't want that. My generation doesn't want that. Once again Kyiv vs Kiev is a part of that ugly past. I can promise you that all of our sites will one day be Kyiv and that the term will be the one used wide-spread and worldwide. But we need to do this one step at a time and wikipedia is a big part of this. This has to be corrected and the general population will then become familiar and accept the new word, it's very easy to spell and pronounce.

I kindly ask that you respect our history, our past and what is currently happening in eastern Ukraine. it's no accident that where the Russian population - 15% of Ukraine's population. lives and breathes, there is a war. the same way Stalin killed my forefathers and replaced them with Russians from Russia, we are battling for the existence of our own unique identity.

Kyiv is and will always be the proper transliterated version of our capital. there is no argument today that can supercede that.
Thank you kindly,
Simon Kostenko


---- On сб, 28 бер 2015 11:27:35 +0200 Florian Weimer&lt;***@deneb.enyo.de&gt; wrote ----

* Simon:

&gt;&gt; Many government web sites in the Ukraine still use the “Kiev”
&gt;&gt; transliteration

&gt; For example?

“While the Obama administration has publicly acknowledged it is
considering supplying Kiev with arms, backed by hardline EU countries
like Poland and Lithuania, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has
vehemently opposed the move.”

&lt;http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=248025420&gt;
Matt Johnson
2015-03-31 19:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Simon,
I won't address the political statements, as that sort of discussion is off topic for this mailing list. There are other more appropriate forums in which you can discuss your viewpoint.

Your original complaint was that the time zone appeared as "Kiev time zone". This string actually does not come from the TZ database, but from the CLDR.
The only information in the TZ database is the zone identifier, which is "Europe/Kiev", as seen here:https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/2015b/europe#L3279-L3291

The CLDR information is here:http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/27/by_type/timezones.europe.html#6dd1046c581ae238
The CLDR has its own mailing list here:http://unicode.org/consortium/distlist-cldr-users.html
You may also be interested in the Wikipedia entries for Ukraine and Kiev, which both use the Kiev spelling as the primary for English:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev

Now, that said, I'm not entirely sure that it wouldn't be possible for the tz database to consider "Europe/Kyiv" as a name change from "Europe/Kiev" with a compatibility link. Wasn't a similar change made for Asia/Calcutta => Asia/Kolkata ? Or do different rules apply since the name was officially changed by the government in 2001? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata#Etymology)


Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 23:33:23 +0300
From: ***@zoho.com
To: ***@deneb.enyo.de; ***@timtimeonline.com
CC: ***@iana.org; ***@iana.org
Subject: Re: [tz] Kyiv time zone

Dear Florian.


perhaps you are not aware of the history between Ukraine and Russia. Let me remind you that Moscow has pursued the destruction of Ukraine, Ukrainians and the Ukrainian language and culture for many centuries. This ethnic cleansing continues today with the Russification of Ukraine. Once you destroy a nation's identity --their language, culture and history, it's quite easy to convert them into mindless robots, who are easy prey for the imperialist. Even in 1991, as we achieved our long overdue independence , Ukrane was over 80-90% pro-Russian. after two plus decades those same people, who were once slaves to the empire, have been schooled on the true history of Ukraine and understand just how devious Moscow was in it's ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainian people. Little over a year ago we got rid of the last remaining remnant of that Soviet-Russian past - the Putin puppet Yanykovych. Our cities are nearly rid of Lenin and Stalin - two monsters that murdered tens of millions of Ukrainians, but as the links you provided show, that past is still a part of the present. We are gradually getting rid of it. The issue of Kyiv vs Kiev is precisely the past vs the present. Kyiv is today, it's also what it was in the old Ruthenian-Ukrainian chronicles that date back to the 9th century. It became Kiev under Russian rule and now it's once again Kyiv.


The war in Eastern Ukraine - the invasion by Russia, is a last attempt too keep Ukraine under Russia's orbit. we don't want that. My generation doesn't want that. Once again Kyiv vs Kiev is a part of that ugly past. I can promise you that all of our sites will one day be Kyiv and that the term will be the one used wide-spread and worldwide. But we need to do this one step at a time and wikipedia is a big part of this. This has to be corrected and the general population will then become familiar and accept the new word, it's very easy to spell and pronounce.

I kindly ask that you respect our history, our past and what is currently happening in eastern Ukraine. it's no accident that where the Russian population - 15% of Ukraine's population. lives and breathes, there is a war. the same way Stalin killed my forefathers and replaced them with Russians from Russia, we are battling for the existence of our own unique identity.

Kyiv is and will always be the proper transliterated version of our capital. there is no argument today that can supercede that.
Thank you kindly,
Simon Kostenko


---- On ñá, 28 áåð 2015 11:27:35 +0200 Florian Weimer<***@deneb.enyo.de> wrote ----
* Simon:

>> Many government web sites in the Ukraine still use the “Kiev”
>> transliteration

> For example?

“While the Obama administration has publicly acknowledged it is
considering supplying Kiev with arms, backed by hardline EU countries
like Poland and Lithuania, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has
vehemently opposed the move.”

<http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=248025420>
Tim Parenti
2015-03-31 19:45:20 UTC
Permalink
On 29 March 2015 at 16:33, sam.ua <***@zoho.com> wrote:

> Kyiv is and will always be the proper transliterated version of our
> capital.


This is a question of *translation*, NOT transliteration. The tz project
endeavors to use the name as it is actively used and spelled in the English
language, regardless of how speakers of other languages would transliterate
their name into the English alphabet (e.g., we use "Rome" instead of
"Roma", "Athens" instead of "Athena", etc.)

Whether "rightly" or "wrongly" according to one's own geopolitical
alignment, the English spelling is still "Kiev", so that is what we use
here. Questions about place names localized for other languages should be
directed at the CLDR.

On 31 March 2015 at 15:04, Matt Johnson <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I won't address the political statements, as that sort of discussion is
> off topic for this mailing list.
>

Quite.

Now, that said, I'm not entirely sure that it wouldn't be possible for the
> tz database to consider "Europe/Kyiv" as a name change from "Europe/Kiev"
> with a compatibility link. Wasn't a similar change made for Asia/Calcutta
> => Asia/Kolkata ? Or do different rules apply since the name was
> officially changed by the government in 2001? (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata#Etymology)
>

I suppose as long as English-language sources would actively use the new
spelling, we would assume the spelling has changed *de facto*, rather than *de
jure* in the case of Kolkata. But either way would work. I suspect Paul
is quite reluctant to get involved here, but I'd be interested in any
insights he might have to share about the Kolkata change.

That said, if this is going to be a repetitively contentious issue, it
could conceivably be better to offer both spellings. But even doing that
would be seen as a political statement, which we consciously and carefully
strive to avoid making.

--
Tim Parenti
Paul Eggert
2015-04-01 05:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Tim Parenti wrote:
> I'd be interested in any
> insights he might have to share about the Kolkata change.

If memory serves that was Arthur David Olson's decision when he was maintainer,
but I can share my two cents. In English, the name "Kolkata" is far more common
than "Calcutta" nowadays, so a name change was in order. In contrast, "Kiev" is
far more common than "Kyiv", so a name change does not seem appropriate. The tz
database prefers commonly-used English-language names to the correct or official
names. For example, it uses America/Los_Angeles even though "Los Angeles" is
not my city's official name.

More generally, it's better to err on the side of conservatism about name
changes, partly because of the hassle for everybody when the names change, and
partly to avoid political discussions that distract from the project.
Florian Weimer
2015-04-01 06:04:27 UTC
Permalink
* Paul Eggert:

> Tim Parenti wrote:
>> I'd be interested in any
>> insights he might have to share about the Kolkata change.
>
> If memory serves that was Arthur David Olson's decision when he was
> maintainer, but I can share my two cents. In English, the name
> "Kolkata" is far more common than "Calcutta" nowadays, so a name
> change was in order. In contrast, "Kiev" is far more common than
> "Kyiv", so a name change does not seem appropriate.

New articles using the “Kiev” spelling are still being published on
*.gov.ua web sites, which suggests to me that the case against “Kiev”
isn't as clear-cut even for the current government. It's also not
practical to edit the TZ spelling each time a new government is
elected.
r***@fastmail.us
2015-04-29 14:36:38 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015, at 01:49, Paul Eggert wrote:
> If memory serves that was Arthur David Olson's decision when he was
> maintainer,
> but I can share my two cents. In English, the name "Kolkata" is far more
> common
> than "Calcutta" nowadays, so a name change was in order.

It seems that this privileges India's ability to define the English
names of its cities, as a country with English as an official language,
vs other countries' ability to do so.
Brian Inglis
2015-04-29 18:44:03 UTC
Permalink
On 2015-04-29 08:36, ***@fastmail.us wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2015, at 01:49, Paul Eggert wrote:
>> If memory serves that was Arthur David Olson's decision when he was
>> maintainer,
>> but I can share my two cents. In English, the name "Kolkata" is far more
>> common
>> than "Calcutta" nowadays, so a name change was in order.
>
> It seems that this privileges India's ability to define the English
> names of its cities, as a country with English as an official language,
> vs other countries' ability to do so.

The Chinese capital has been known in English as Peking (from Cantonese
pronunciation), Peiping, Beiping, and Beijing, in English language
announcements produced by various Chinese governments.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Beijing

When governments do not make announcements in English, the usage will
be that oflocal English language journalists, unless edited by a
publication, for easier local comprehension or political reasons.
--
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
Philip Newton
2015-04-01 10:02:45 UTC
Permalink
On 31 March 2015 at 21:45, Tim Parenti <***@timtimeonline.com> wrote:

>
> This is a question of *translation*, NOT transliteration. The tz project
> endeavors to use the name as it is actively used and spelled in the English
> language, regardless of how speakers of other languages would transliterate
> their name into the English alphabet (e.g., we use "Rome" instead of
> "Roma", "Athens" instead of "Athena", etc.)
>

Or, for that matter, "Moscow", which Simon quite naturally used in his
(English-language) message.

Cheers,
Philip
Lester Caine
2015-03-31 18:46:54 UTC
Permalink
On 29/03/15 21:33, sam.ua wrote:
> Kyiv is and will always be the proper transliterated version of our
> capital. there is no argument today that can supercede that.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kyiv

There is no problem with Kyiv being the local language name for a city,
but for the rest of the world the 'standard' is Kiev, and it is that
standard which all of the names within the 'English' version of the TZ
database follows. There is no ulterior agenda here, simply following
established practice in an attempt to avoid 'political' bias of any kind.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
Paul Ganssle
2015-03-31 19:04:48 UTC
Permalink
All of which has no bearing on the mainstream English spelling of the
city. There's also an Asia/Saigon instead of Asia/Ho_Chi_Minh_City and
Asia/Rangoon instead of Asia/Yangon. There's no reason to read any
political meaning into the English word - it's just what
English-speaking people call it.

I notice that you seem to have failed to change your cut-and-paste, but
my guess is that your arguments won't fly over on Wikipedia either,
because, as in this case, maximizing clarity and minimizing confusion is
what's important in this application, not some more general concept of
social justice.

On 3/29/2015 15:33, sam.ua wrote:
> Dear Florian.
>
> perhaps you are not aware of the history between Ukraine and Russia.
> Let me remind you that Moscow has pursued the destruction of Ukraine,
> Ukrainians and the Ukrainian language and culture for many centuries.
> This ethnic cleansing continues today with the Russification of
> Ukraine. Once you destroy a nation's identity --their language,
> culture and history, it's quite easy to convert them into mindless
> robots, who are easy prey for the imperialist. Even in 1991, as we
> achieved our long overdue independence , Ukrane was over 80-90%
> pro-Russian. after two plus decades those same people, who were once
> slaves to the empire, have been schooled on the true history of
> Ukraine and understand just how devious Moscow was in it's ethnic
> cleansing of the Ukrainian people. Little over a year ago we got rid
> of the last remaining remnant of that Soviet-Russian past - the Putin
> puppet Yanykovych. Our cities are nearly rid of Lenin and Stalin - two
> monsters that murdered tens of millions of Ukrainians, but as the
> links you provided show, that past is still a part of the present. We
> are gradually getting rid of it. The issue of Kyiv vs Kiev is
> precisely the past vs the present. Kyiv is today, it's also what it
> was in the old Ruthenian-Ukrainian chronicles that date back to the
> 9th century. It became Kiev under Russian rule and now it's once again
> Kyiv.
>
> The war in Eastern Ukraine - the invasion by Russia, is a last attempt
> too keep Ukraine under Russia's orbit. we don't want that. My
> generation doesn't want that. Once again Kyiv vs Kiev is a part of
> that ugly past. I can promise you that all of our sites will one day
> be Kyiv and that the term will be the one used wide-spread and
> worldwide. But we need to do this one step at a time and wikipedia is
> a big part of this. This has to be corrected and the general
> population will then become familiar and accept the new word, it's
> very easy to spell and pronounce.
>
> I kindly ask that you respect our history, our past and what is
> currently happening in eastern Ukraine. it's no accident that where
> the Russian population - 15% of Ukraine's population. lives and
> breathes, there is a war. the same way Stalin killed my forefathers
> and replaced them with Russians from Russia, we are battling for the
> existence of our own unique identity.
>
> Kyiv is and will always be the proper transliterated version of our
> capital. there is no argument today that can supercede that.
> Thank you kindly,
> Simon Kostenko
>
>
> ---- On сб, 28 бер 2015 11:27:35 +0200 *Florian
> Weimer<***@deneb.enyo.de>* wrote ----
>
> * Simon:
>
> >> Many government web sites in the Ukraine still use the “Kiev”
> >> transliteration
>
> > For example?
>
> “While the Obama administration has publicly acknowledged it is
> considering supplying Kiev with arms, backed by hardline EU countries
> like Poland and Lithuania, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has
> vehemently opposed the move.”
>
> <http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=248025420>
>
>
>
Leonardo Brondani Schenkel
2015-04-15 11:56:27 UTC
Permalink
As a different example, China changed the transliteration of Peking to
Beijing but the Portuguese name (at least in Brazil) is still "Pequim"
and I presume that it will take many decades for "Beijing" to become
mainstream... if it ever happens.

// Leonardo.

On 31/03/15 21:04, Paul Ganssle wrote:
> All of which has no bearing on the mainstream English spelling of the
> city. There's also an Asia/Saigon instead of Asia/Ho_Chi_Minh_City and
> Asia/Rangoon instead of Asia/Yangon. There's no reason to read any
> political meaning into the English word - it's just what
> English-speaking people call it.
>
> I notice that you seem to have failed to change your cut-and-paste, but
> my guess is that your arguments won't fly over on Wikipedia either,
> because, as in this case, maximizing clarity and minimizing confusion is
> what's important in this application, not some more general concept of
> social justice.
>
> On 3/29/2015 15:33, sam.ua wrote:
>> Dear Florian.
>>
>> perhaps you are not aware of the history between Ukraine and Russia.
>> Let me remind you that Moscow has pursued the destruction of Ukraine,
>> Ukrainians and the Ukrainian language and culture for many centuries.
>> This ethnic cleansing continues today with the Russification of
>> Ukraine. Once you destroy a nation's identity --their language,
>> culture and history, it's quite easy to convert them into mindless
>> robots, who are easy prey for the imperialist. Even in 1991, as we
>> achieved our long overdue independence , Ukrane was over 80-90%
>> pro-Russian. after two plus decades those same people, who were once
>> slaves to the empire, have been schooled on the true history of
>> Ukraine and understand just how devious Moscow was in it's ethnic
>> cleansing of the Ukrainian people. Little over a year ago we got rid
>> of the last remaining remnant of that Soviet-Russian past - the Putin
>> puppet Yanykovych. Our cities are nearly rid of Lenin and Stalin - two
>> monsters that murdered tens of millions of Ukrainians, but as the
>> links you provided show, that past is still a part of the present. We
>> are gradually getting rid of it. The issue of Kyiv vs Kiev is
>> precisely the past vs the present. Kyiv is today, it's also what it
>> was in the old Ruthenian-Ukrainian chronicles that date back to the
>> 9th century. It became Kiev under Russian rule and now it's once again
>> Kyiv.
>>
>> The war in Eastern Ukraine - the invasion by Russia, is a last attempt
>> too keep Ukraine under Russia's orbit. we don't want that. My
>> generation doesn't want that. Once again Kyiv vs Kiev is a part of
>> that ugly past. I can promise you that all of our sites will one day
>> be Kyiv and that the term will be the one used wide-spread and
>> worldwide. But we need to do this one step at a time and wikipedia is
>> a big part of this. This has to be corrected and the general
>> population will then become familiar and accept the new word, it's
>> very easy to spell and pronounce.
>>
>> I kindly ask that you respect our history, our past and what is
>> currently happening in eastern Ukraine. it's no accident that where
>> the Russian population - 15% of Ukraine's population. lives and
>> breathes, there is a war. the same way Stalin killed my forefathers
>> and replaced them with Russians from Russia, we are battling for the
>> existence of our own unique identity.
>>
>> Kyiv is and will always be the proper transliterated version of our
>> capital. there is no argument today that can supercede that.
>> Thank you kindly,
>> Simon Kostenko
>>
>>
>> ---- On сб, 28 бер 2015 11:27:35 +0200 *Florian
>> Weimer<***@deneb.enyo.de>* wrote ----
>>
>> * Simon:
>>
>> >> Many government web sites in the Ukraine still use the “Kiev”
>> >> transliteration
>>
>> > For example?
>>
>> “While the Obama administration has publicly acknowledged it is
>> considering supplying Kiev with arms, backed by hardline EU countries
>> like Poland and Lithuania, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has
>> vehemently opposed the move.”
>>
>> <http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=248025420>
>>
>>
>>
>
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